How Carfax Doesn't Protect You From Buying A Used Lemon

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 11/03/2014 at 13:00 • Filed to: None

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What happens to defective automobiles – "Lemons" – that get bought back under the lemon law? Most of them get sold right back into the stream of commerce as used vehicles. And often, the full histories of the cars are not disclosed – not even on Carfax.

I am an attorney in the state of Michigan and have been handling !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! claims for 23 years. In a successful case, cars are often bought back by the manufacturer and the consumer gets a refund. People sometimes ask what happens to those defective cars. Are they taken out and crushed? No, the cars are sent to auction and simply put back into circulation as used cars. I have heard all kinds of stories over the years about the extent car companies go in "fixing" cars before they are sold. These policies vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and probably change all the time.

The real question though is: What information is passed along with the car to let future owners know of its history? And, would Carfax pick it up? To learn a bit more about this, I grabbed five VINs at random of cars which had been bought back by Big Three automakers from clients of mine. I then ran the VINs through Carfax. I got 5 reports for $49.99 since I was bulk-purchasing. Here is what I found.

Car One was a Chevrolet Cobalt, and Carfax makes no mention of a lemon law buy back. The report does reveal that it was "Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction." Should I worry? The smiling fox says,"Millions of used vehicles are bought and sold at auction every year." The good news in this report is that the mileage shown, according to Carfax, is "LOW MILEAGE." Carfax does not hint that the reason this car has been driven so little is that it is beset with electrical problems.

Car Two was a Chevrolet Corvette. No mention is made in the Carfax of the buyback but the fox tells me the vehicle was, "Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction." Again, "Millions of used vehicles are bought and sold at auction every year." No mention is made of the reason for the car being in the auction and I can tell you that some poor guy a couple states over is wondering why his low mileage, one-owner supercharged Corvette has such severe engine problems.

Car Three was a Chevrolet Volt. I haven't had too many of these in my office and there is no mention of the buyback in the Carfax report. Obviously, this is another GM product. Again, "Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction." And, of course, "Millions of used vehicles are bought and sold at auction every year." The smiling fox suggests I should not worry. As we know, animals that smile on the internet are trustworthy.

Car Four was a Dodge Dart. Chrysler actually disclosed, "This vehicle was reacquired [] pursuant to applicable state consumer warranty laws or to promote customer satisfaction." I like the disclosure but can't help notice its squirrely nature. Why was it bought back? They say it was twofold. There was a "squeak from front end over bumps" and "Transmission not shifting." Hmmmm. I wonder which of those upset the original owner more?

Car Five was a Ford Focus. The Carfax report prominently warned that the car had been "listed at auction as a manufacturer buyback vehicle. This information was disclosed by the seller at time of sale." No reason was given for the buyback. I had always heard that Ford was good about the disclosures so this matched up with what I had been told.

A bigger question is whether the auction buyer (most likely a car dealer since most, if not all, of these cars are sold at auctions not open to the public) passed this information to their customer when they resold it? A simple solution is to brand the title - put a warning on the title to indicate the vehicle is a lemon - but only a handful of states require that. Michigan is not one of them.

So, the first lesson here is: Carfax does not find Lemon Law buyback information from all the car companies in Michigan. (It would seem a safe bet that this happens in some other states as well, don't you think?) It seems that information from Chrysler and Ford gets into the system while GM's does not. I know this is based on a limited survey of five buybacks researched at random on Carfax but it does line up with what I have been told over the years.

Also of note is that all five of the Carfax reports I pulled gave "guarantees" regarding the titles to these lemons, promising that they did not have any of the following title problems: "Salvage|Junk|Rebuilt|Fire|Flood|Hail|Lemon." I suspect that many people reading that would feel at ease, knowing the vehicle they were looking at was not a lemon. But – as we know – all five of these examples were repurchased under a state lemon law. To split hairs, Carfax is saying that none of these vehicles' titles has ever been branded with any of those designations.

Carfax does note that these laws vary from state to state - if you hover your cursor over the word lemon and read what pops up. I wonder how many people find that pop-up?

If a vehicle is branded a lemon in one state, it is a simple matter to take the vehicle to a state that does not brand titles and retitle it there. Presumably, Carfax's "lemon" guarantee would apply to such a transaction.

The second lesson is that the Carfax reports give a false sense of security as to repair histories. I know that each of these vehicles had a troubled past. Each one visited service departments repeatedly (except for Car Two which we can discuss in a moment). Many of the visits are reported on the Carfax but in only the most innocuous terms. The reports show many visits to the dealer as "maintenance inspections," without mentioning the complaints the owner had which brought them into the dealer on that visit.

Car Two spent more than 30 days in for repairs in its first year because of catastrophic engine failure. That repair visit is not indicated on the Carfax report. In fact, the report shows no service visits and instead draws the reader's attention to the fact that the car has "Low mileage!"

I think the fault here - the information not getting through to consumers - is not entirely the fault of Carfax. I do take umbrage with their presentation of some of the histories above but they cannot report what they are not told. Particularly with the titles. That would require all of the manufacturers to pass this information along, an action that would cost them money in the form of lowered resale values. Of course, a Federal statute mandating title branding would be a good step toward solving part of this problem. Or, the rest of the states could follow the lead of the states which already require it.

Until then, if you are car shopping and you find a Carfax in front of you, look for an auction history. Regardless of whether Carfax mentions a lemon law buyback or not, keep in mind that the vehicle might be a recycled lemon if it passed through an auction as a "manufacturer vehicle." Also, understand that Carfax does not report everything and some of what it misses can be quite important.

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Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 23 years, specializing in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . He also wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

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This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we're not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn't act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

Coty > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:04

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I WILL MURDER YOUR ENTIRE FAMILY.


That is that facial expression, right there.

Coty > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:04

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And this sounds like a wonderful car.

SteveLehto > Coty 11/03/2014 at 13:05

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I'll take it! Look how happy that fox is!

Renault R8 Gordini from 1966 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:21

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THe most uninspiring mascot ever. A fox a white t-shirt with an annoying voice and a khaki pants. (plus a white shirt with some lettering)

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:22

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THANKS OBAMA, could you ever do something useful, I don't know, Like make laws that are useful to the consumer, not to the car companies.

SteveLehto > Renault R8 Gordini from 1966 11/03/2014 at 13:23

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At least he is wearing pants. So many animals don't when they have executive positions like that.

945T > Renault R8 Gordini from 1966 11/03/2014 at 13:23

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yeah, not to mention originally in their ads the Car Fox was a ripoff brand of car fax.... And now this competing brand is proselytizing for them? Makes no sense. What a crappy campaign.

SteveLehto > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:24

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I would like to see some Federal action here. The states that don't have the title branding, however, have been lobbied heavily by the manufacturers not to pass the laws . . .

Renault R8 Gordini from 1966 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:24

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He's being decent at least. HE knows we don't wanna see that little thing.

Dake > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:24

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I know there was a class-action suit against Carfax for misrepresenting their sources. They failed to mention that some States do not provide them with information but they would happily sell you a Carfax for a vehicle in those States implying they were providing the same level of info. I think I got my choice of a refund or two free Carfaxes (while still living in a State that didn't provide info).

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:25

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the only thing is that at the rate congress moves, we will probably get said federal legislation after we are all dead.

SteveLehto > Dake 11/03/2014 at 13:26

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There have also been lawsuits against the manufacturers for selling the lemons without disclosure. The whole arena is a mess.

SteveLehto > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:27

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Or long after cars are obsolete.

ezeolla > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:27

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And now I have another reason for not really caring about the CarFax report. Everyone obsesses with it because they think that every mechanic and dealership reports everything to CarFax. Surpise! They don't

Well done, CarFax marketing department

Viperfan1 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:28

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As always, don't trust a carfax. Use it to only weed out the truly bad ones. Also, I've had cars with good carfaxes, but bad autochecks, as well as ones with good autochecks and bad carfaxes. So get both and if they pass still get a complete mechanical lookover and know that you're buying a used vehicle.
As far as auctions, meh, go to any dealers auction and you'll see plenty of great cars that were simply trade-ins or otherwise took too long to sell. A good buddy of mine buys up as many convertible V6 Mustangs in the north and sells them to dealers in the southern states who pay top $$$.

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:30

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Stupid President making all those laws and can't make one law for the people.

Huh, what's that you say Bill?...Well, that can't be right. You see Jordaneer said it's the POTUS who makes the laws.

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:31

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yep, by then we will have hoverboards (which would be epic).

Ry-bones, FiST pilot > Renault R8 Gordini from 1966 11/03/2014 at 13:32

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Beady eyes like a criminal.

Stiiles > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:32

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Presidents don't write laws, Congress does, and the current Congress is useless thanks to the obstructionist GOP members which - among other things - made sure that the federal consumer protection agency was gutted. You know, the agency that would back and enforce laws like this one.

Stiiles > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:35

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Great tip on looking for auction cars listed as "manufacturer vehicles". I've told my clients and students about Carfax's reporting limitations and interstate title washing but that's a new one to me. Filed for future reference.

athought123 > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:35

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Oh you mean cash for clunkers?

Blinkrfluid > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:38

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Any thoughts on inviting lobbyists to an all-expense paid cruise out to the Marianas Trench,then scuttling the ship?

spngr311 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:39

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In your past experience, do returned leased vehicles get the same "Listed as a manufacturer vehicle Sold at auction" tag?

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:40

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I thought most if not all car enthusiasts were aware that information from the CarFox was considered "best-effort" and to be taken with a grain of salt.

SteveLehto > spngr311 11/03/2014 at 13:40

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Not unless they were bought back as lemons. These vehicles are titled to the MFR at the time of the auction. Leased vehicles are held in the name of a leasing company.

Blinkrfluid > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:42

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Let's leave Demuro out of this

SteveLehto > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 11/03/2014 at 13:43

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How good does this effort look to you? I think the gaps in their reports are larger than most people suspect.

edgeburner > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:46

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CarFax can be a double edged sword. I can't tell you how many people trading in their car are disappointed that a fender bender showed up - sometimes well after the fact and they do not remember the incident. In the big scheme of things, it isn't he end of the world. One of the oddest things to show up on Carfaxes is an odometer discrepancy. All it takes is a fat thumb key entry during a routine oil change by a Jiffy Lube guy

jariten1781 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:49

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In my experience anything that shows up as 'manufacturer owned' is majorly suspect. I always assumed they were demos because their wear was consistent with fleet vehicles (aka driven by people who didn't own them and didn't care for them) but apparently they're lemon returns as well. Good to know.

Hassayampa Slim > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 13:50

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Here's what happened to me some 7 years ago. I found a nice two year old Saturn L300 Wagon with low miles at a Saturn dealer here in Arizona. After a little haggling (Saturn no haggle sales??) we agreed on a deal. I had looked at the dealer supplied Car Fax, and there was no mention of "Buy Back" or "Sold at Auction", just that the vehicle was originally bought and registered in Pennsylvania, and then showed up as registered to GM Saturn. In Arizona apparently, such a car cannot be registered until the new owner signs an acknowledgement of being told the vehicle is a Manufacturer Buy Back. After a number of stories as to why my registration was taking so long, the dealer finally confessed. I negotiated a new full five year 75,000 mile bumper to bumper extended warranty including roadside service for free, and agreed to sign the statement. Guess I was lucky, the vehicle has been exceptional with no major problems. A few problems during the 5 years, like a leaky oil pump, leaky fuel pump, and a crank sensor, were all fixed gratis, with even a rental car provided for one of the two day fix jobs. All in all, in spite of the dealer's original omission of details, I would have to say that both Saturn and the dealer, lived up to, and beyond, my expectations. That being said, it stands to reason there is no more Saturn... :-(

SteveLehto > jariten1781 11/03/2014 at 13:50

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I was kind of surprised at that designation, especially because it was followed by the kindly fox saying how common auctions are. Yes, auctions are common. The factory-owned car going through an auction is a different thing.

Thanks for the note.

Speedmerchant > 945T 11/03/2014 at 13:51

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The Car fox is Car faxes mascot.....

945T > Speedmerchant 11/03/2014 at 13:52

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The first few ads, he was a foxy competing company that was a rip off and didn't have access to the same in depth history - supposedly. Then they decided to begin making it a regular mascot.

No Longer Suffering Saturn > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 13:59

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http://pda.sciencealert.com.au/news/20140311-…

deekster_caddy > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:01

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I'm curious though - sometimes vehicles can spend more than 30 days at a dealership and end up being bought back under a lemon law, even though there was a single problem and a poor dealer's service department. So if something like that were to happen, what would the problem be? There was a problem, it was eventually repaired, and the lemon law only applied because the service dept at the dealership took too long. How is that different from 'the car has been back 8 times for electrical problems...'?

I know this happened to some Volts from the Volt forum I visit - they had an issue that wasn't part of technician training, many dealerships only had one Volt technician, and back and forth with GM engineering was slow resulting in longer than normal visits and a few 'lemon law' buybacks because of exceeding 30 days.

Gated Manual > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:03

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Steve great article as always. Very useful and informative. I thought you recently got authorship to carbuying? In any case you're articles are great...

Jed Mosley > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:05

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Why does it seem like Carfax is giving opinions that could sway the buyer one way or the other (usually towards buy it seems) and not just presenting a factual account of records? If they leaned any more it would seem like they have something to gain on the purchase.

SteveLehto > deekster_caddy 11/03/2014 at 14:06

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The 30-day down Lemon is much less common in my experience. I'd say I have one of those for ever 100 of the 4X down for the same thing.

Keep in mind that the owner still has to send a last chance letter to the MFR in a 30 day case (at least in MICH) and the MFR then is on notice that they have 5 days to get the thing fixed. In those instances, I have seen the MFR send someone out to do the repair regardless of who the dealer had on staff.

The Volt was very unusual and understandably so. All the new technology and whatnot.

But my point is that the consumer is better off knowing and I wish they got the info (or if they didn't - they knew they didn't). If someone WANTS to buy a used lemon, more power to them. I wouldn't willingly buy one but then again, I've seen some bad things.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > Gated Manual 11/03/2014 at 14:07

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Yes, I did. One day a week. I can't help myself. I have a great article lined up for THURS and didn't want to wait til next week for this one.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > Jed Mosley 11/03/2014 at 14:08

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And their #1 customer is . . . . . ? The dealers. That's why they tell you to ask them for it. Since they sell them to dealers I presume they view the Carfax as a sales tool.

HeathJokerSick > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:12

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Always enjoy reading your articles Steve. Very informative.

SteveLehto > HeathJokerSick 11/03/2014 at 14:13

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Thanks!

deekster_caddy > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:13

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Interesting to hear the 30-day vs 4x-down issue. I didn't realize the 4x down for the same thing was so frequent an issue. Also, I believe some states are 3x down.

Definitely, I think the consumer should know they are buying a Lemon Law buyback car, as well as the reason it was bought back!!! I would think for many of the dealerships that supposedly enter even routine maintenance visits, that the services leading up to a buyback would still be part of the VIN info tracked by Carfax.

VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:18

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Oh, I totally agree, Steve. "Best effort" is simply a term used in computer talk to describe something that may succeed sometimes but most likely will typically fall short of the ideal objective. Unfortunately enforcement in auto (and most other types of) sales accountability is not as strong as I would like it. I didn't mean to infer they were doing a good job, it was more a statement of "The ENTIRE American People should know this, since Jalops are mostly the choir being preached to."

As an aside, I love your stuff Steve. Thanks for all the great articles!

SteveLehto > VajazzleMcDildertits - read carefully, respond politely 11/03/2014 at 14:21

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Thanks for the note!

Pamela > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 14:23

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Remember. A Vote for not republican is a vote for Obama–who is not running in this race but that is not relevant.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > No Longer Suffering Saturn 11/03/2014 at 14:25

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i can't wait for when we get Lithium air batteries working well, becuase then something like this would have a usuable lifespan

Gated Manual > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:26

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Cool... must read thursdays...

TotallyThatStupid > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:27

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I worked at a VW dealer here in Minnesota that had a pretty high-end used department - we ran through a lot of Audis, BMWs, MBs, the occasional Bentley, and myriad SUVs and sports cars (we sold more used Porsches and Audis that the local dealer). The shop's general manager actually had a decent eye for late-model premium iron, but not so much the vintage stuff that would occasionally appear ("Nice '56 Chevy. Shame about the Bondo.").

Many of the cars were, of course, picked up at auction. Many of them were from western states, especially California. The CA-sourced cars would sometimes have Lemon Law stickers on the door jambs disclosing they were buybacks. For the record, we never removed these.

Now, CA has very strict Lemon Laws. Heck, when I lived out there, we almost Lemon Law-ed our Toyota because it took the dealer a bunch of times to fix all the dashboard rattles and diagnose/acknowledge the transmission noise. They eventually fixed the rattles and ultimately replaced the transmission, but we were within our rights to make them buy back the car. We didn't. because good luck finding another Matrix XRS 6-speed in the greater San Francisco area.

Likely, the car would have then been flushed to auction, with a Lemon Law sticker.

SteveLehto > TotallyThatStupid 11/03/2014 at 14:29

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Stickering a car is extreme. I wonder how many states actually do that? With odometers it's more common (you sticker the car to denote a new odo head set to zero) and people tear those off all the time (which is a crime, but you know how that goes).

Thanks for the note.

Also_Ran > 945T 11/03/2014 at 14:31

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We have a similar situation in Britain.

Originally Alexandr was pissed off that people were accidentally DDOSing his website (Compare The Meerkat) and begged us to be more careful with our spelling. Now he's flat out shilling for the other website (Compare The Market). Still no one has explained why the meerkats are Russian.

Kevin Rhodes > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:35

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A Carfax report is worth roughly the paper it is printed on. I have had two salvage title cars with squeaky clean Carfax reports. I also have a car that I had full documentation on from day 1 to my ownership that Carfax had wildly screwed up odometer readings for.

And as far as lemons go - IMHO there is no such thing as a lemon. There are, however, wildly incompetent dealer techs all over the place, and some states have ludicrously easy buyback laws (looking at California in particular).

sadfasdf > edgeburner 11/03/2014 at 14:36

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If you get more than one discrepancy, and they're consistent, you know someone's been fucking with it.

sadfasdf > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:37

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So is there any reason why a manufacturer would be the one owning the car or taking it to auction that wouldn't make the car a bad buy?

Should we just take ANY manufacturer ownership of a car after its initial sale to mean "lemon?"

btc909 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:37

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Most dealers use AutoCheck. Not to say it's any better than CarFax.

majkqball > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:38

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I lemoned my BMW 335i in 2009. They placed a very visible "lemon"ish sticker on the driver's door jamb (who knows if it stayed). The car was later found in Chicago (I googled the VIN) - a far ways from California.

The shady-esque dealer listed the title as clean, although after I emailed them they changed their wording slightly.

SteveLehto > Kevin Rhodes 11/03/2014 at 14:40

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You had me until the last sentence. I have seen some crazy carfaxes as well. The oil change guys messing up the mileage is the worst. Most lemons IMO ARE caused by bad techs. Once in a while a bad car comes through but I've seen a disproportionate number of cars coming from some dealers and other dealers I never see even though they have big volumes. Or the dealers that change service managers and suddenly we have no lemons (or vice versa).

The laws aren't that easy to get cars bought back. I think CA is 3 X instead of 4 which is common in many states. I do think states with punitive damages (WI?) might be pushing it a little but I guarantee you that if you owned any of the five cars I described above - you would have been irate as well.

I am surprised no one has asked how expensive that supercharged 'vette was . . . .

SteveLehto > sadfasdf 11/03/2014 at 14:41

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I was wondering about that. I suspect that most (if not all) are lemons. If anyone KNOWS otherwise, I am all ears.

Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > btc909 11/03/2014 at 14:41

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I wonder how much it will cost me to run these five VINs through that? Maybe I'll do it for a compare-and-contrast.

SteveLehto > majkqball 11/03/2014 at 14:42

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Someone else mentioned the CA sticker. Interesting. I suspect most of them get removed about 30 seconds after the auction. A branded title would be much more effective.

Anonimious > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 14:43

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Civics lesson alert: The President is... The Executive Branch. The Congress is... The Legislative Branch.

Now, Who makes laws?

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/3-5/lawmaking/…

majkqball > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:47

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Here's the thread I started when I found it in '09.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthr…

jdhairgel > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:49

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Back in the early days of CarFax, a good report gave a little piece of mind. Now days, a good CarFax report means fuck all. Last 2 cars I bought (2006 Mercedes C230 and a 2010 Mercury Milan) had squeaky clean reports (despite being purchased at auction) and have been complete fucking headaches. The 2006 Benz? 86K and a dying motor from a balance shaft gear that dies prematurely due to poor manufacturing. Benz knows, but only that the issue exists, not the number of cars that got bad parts. They fixed it mid stream... The 2010 milan? Less than 70K miles and through 2 throttle bodies already. Still get a CEL and stumbling/lunging at idle with a code for "lean condition" (which could be 50,000 fucking things).

Buy a new car. With a warranty. Use it. I swear, used cars should be destroyed on trade in.

puppyknuckles > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:49

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THIS. I bought a MINI Cooper once that had a clear Carfax, and a few years later almost got hosed big time upon trade-in because the AutoCheck report actually showed a salvage title. Those reports are crazy inaccurate.

Carfax is a money making racket pretending to look out for consumers when what they really do is pressure dealerships to offer their reports for free and slap them with huge fees. That little fox doesn't care about you or me.

My Mustang's hood was replaced last year because someone dinged it, and because my insurance got involved (long story) now my Carfax shows simply that it's been in "an accident". Because of that it's now worth $4,000 less as a trade at the Ford dealer where I bought the damn thing. Not because of the actual condition of my car (it's cared for like crazy) but simply because that Carfax report will scare people off. Now I have to pursue the guy's insurance company for a depreciated value settlement, over a year later, and they aren't responding, of course.

Screw you, Car Fox.

shop-teacher > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:49

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You left of the supercharged part ... so, how expensive was it?

SteveLehto > shop-teacher 11/03/2014 at 14:54

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Did you know they made a 'vette with an MSRP of $124K?

spngr311 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 14:55

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So would that be a good tag to look for when trying to screen for lemons?

SteveLehto > spngr311 11/03/2014 at 14:57

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I would think so, yes.

Noodles > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:02

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Carfax is a tool, but don't invest yourself to highly in it. Our 1991 NSX was totaled in TX after we had a deer strike at about 45mph. Hit the deer mid leap and struck right where the windsheild meets the roof. The roof folded back and the deer came into the car. Insurance company put the damages at 24k, and the car was totaled out. It went to insurance auction in Austin TX. You would think that would leave a pretty serious paper trail right? the kind of trail that Carfax bots would absolutely pick up on.

It didn't. At last check JH4NA1158MT002875 was alive and well in SoCal with a clean Carfax vehicle history report.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:03

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GM doesn't seem to be too bothered about selling a potentially unsafe vehicle to the public, does it?

Noodles > Noodles 11/03/2014 at 15:05

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pic of the Carfax i ran a few years back...

porschephile463 > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:08

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I don't know if this is an officially recognized way of detecting problem cars or not, but when I get my hads on the carfax I look at the first couple years when the car was under warranty. If there are lots of entries during that time citing things that are not oil changed and tire rotation then I WALK AWAY. I'm sure this doesn't work on all cars or manufactures, but it works great on the 2000's model high end luxury cars. On those people who buy them new under warranty are very persnickety and the dealers typically submit a good amount of info on service reports. It's especially true when looking at know problematic vehicles such as Land Rovers, Jaguars & Audis. The lines on those cars I look for are things like "electrical system checked, brakes checked, power steering system checked" etc when the car still has low miles.

SteveLehto > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 11/03/2014 at 15:09

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They would argue that the vehicle is fixed and/or it wasn't a safety issue. Some might disagree but that's how they sleep at night (when those ignition switch lawsuits aren't keeping them up).

SteveLehto > porschephile463 11/03/2014 at 15:11

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I noticed that on a few of these. A lot of line items but no details. They seemed to match up with service visits. But the corvette with the blown engine? NOTHING by way of service. Zero.

Benton > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:14

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worked in the car business for 7 years, use car fax with caution, I've seen a fair amount of vehicles with major body damage that was never reported on car fax. As far as lemons, with most manufactures, they are sold at auction to franchised new car dealers for that make. The one's I sold required full disclosure to the customer as required by the manufacturer. These cars weren't much cheaper than a non lemon. I'd avoid them if you can.

Destructive Tester > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:15

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"A simple solution is to brand the title - put a warning on the title to indicate the vehicle is a lemon - but only a handful of states require that. Michigan is not one of them."

Hmmm, could this be the diligent work of the best politicians money can buy?

SteveLehto > Benton 11/03/2014 at 15:15

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Can you say which MFR you were dealing with? Over the years, I have heard that Ford and Chrysler were very good at the auction disclosures but GM was not.

Mr. T > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:16

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testing

SteveLehto > Destructive Tester 11/03/2014 at 15:18

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Bingo. WE HAVE A WINNER!

Yes, the car companies lobby heavy on issues like this. You should have seen the trouble we went through to get the lemon law to cover leases! The lobbyists were out in full force and the arguments they made were IDIOTIC. "Why should we have to buyback a car the lessee doesn't even own?" "They get to turn it in at the end of the lease. Why can't they wait?" Grown men in suits (there were no female lobbyists that I saw) being paid to make stupid arguments. Luckily, the law passed against their protestations.

ArnoldNewman > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:20

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Always look forward to your posts, Steve. Very helpful.

ParanoidGeezer > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:25

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My wife and I recently purchased a Cadillac ATS that had been repurchased by GM due to electrical issues. This was disclosed to us (after arriving at the car dealership) and we were given a copy of the final repair order that was done along with diagnostic reports showing what the issues were and what repairs were made. We were able to reach out to the shop that did the work (a dealership in the Detroit area) and find out that the car had several trips, and it ultimately turned out to be a bad ground connection which was fixed. By that time, the customer was very frustrated, and GM agreed to replace the car for them.

As part of the sale, we were required to sign forms that went to GM acknowledging we were informed of the car history and the supplemental warranty. Our understanding is that if the dealer failed to provide the information they did, obtain the signatures they did, and such then GM would hammer them.

We've now had this car for three months with no problems. The purchase price was equal to a similar off lease car that was a year older and had 28K more miles. The selling price was about 6K less than it should have been based on Edmunds comps, and the car came with a 12mo/12K supplemental warranty, which is sort of pointless given the factory warranty is barely broken in.

From my own purely selfish perspective, as long as the car maker provides good disclosure to the next purchaser, then I'm ok with not branding the car as a lemon. If I then sell it in a few years hopefully either it worked well, or I fixed it so it worked well.

Mr. T > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:28

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There is a car call in radio program in CO on Fri. Usually have at least one dealer on the panel to take questions. recently one dealer said less than 30 of dealerships and licensed repair shops report to carfax. Main reason is that carfax requires them to be able to interface with the dealers entire computer system. That gives them access to names, banking information, social security#, etc. of all the dealers customers. So dealers on this program said would never sign up with carfax. This especially scary for those dealers customers that do sign up because I know carfax has terrible security to prevent hackers to get into their system. As mentioned before I have proof where hackers have gotten into carfax system and replaced real dealer for an auto with their fake info and contact info.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Anonimious 11/03/2014 at 15:28

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I know, Im actually in a government class this year for school, as well as US history, The president executes the laws, congress writes the laws and the courts interpret them.

SteveLehto > ArnoldNewman 11/03/2014 at 15:32

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Thanks for the note.

SteveLehto > ParanoidGeezer 11/03/2014 at 15:34

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Sounds good. I am just worried about the cars where there are no disclosures made.

If you are a brave person, call the previous owner and ask them about the car. See if the story you got matches theirs.

SteveLehto > Mr. T 11/03/2014 at 15:39

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What is the name of the program? I've been doing a lot more radio these days because of my writing here. I should look them up.

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Blinkrfluid 11/03/2014 at 15:40

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so your saying put them on a sub into the depths of the ocean, then cut a hole in it,

Sounds good to me!

POSFordRanger > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:44

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It's the ZR1. Apparently you weren't around in 08-09.

Kevin Rhodes > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:45

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CA may be a perception thing - having been on BMW forums since the start of the fuel pump issues with the turbo-6s, a HUGE number of those early cars got bought back in CA. And resold to people who drove them without a problem once BMW came up with a pump that worked. Probably a combination of more lax laws, and BMW bending over backwards when they probably didn't really have to. VW got a beating during the bad coil pack debacle fifteen years ago. They could not get replacements fast enough to replace all four on all the affected cars initially, so a lot of cars went in for one coil at a time, and/or sat waiting for parts long enough to trigger a buyback.

I can definitely see the domestic makes in MI putting up a lot more of a fight on their home turf. I have a friend here in Maine who does a lot of buyback work, he finds this to be the case - the domestics fight tooth and nail, the imports mostly just buy the car and get the person into a new one of their brand. Maine is actually pretty lax - it's basically 3 attempts to repair and/or 15 days out of service, but it has to be a fairly major issue. Also, applies to used cars sold by dealers too, with some limitations as to warranty, time and mileage.

So why was the supercharged 'vette bought back rather than simply getting a new motor under warranty? Some small percentage of engines are going to blow up, that's why there is a warranty in the first place. I imagine that number is a lot higher on a supercharged sportscar motor, helped along by a bit of operator error... A money shift or two perhaps? Or did it blow up multiple times?

Creole Trash Panda > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 15:46

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Actually, Law Enforcement executes the laws. The Executive branch approves or vetoes laws at their political direction. I think you may want to study a little bit harder in class.

SteveLehto > POSFordRanger 11/03/2014 at 15:47

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I've been around since 1962. Not sure why you think that.

SteveLehto > Kevin Rhodes 11/03/2014 at 15:50

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I seem to recall (and I've had so many cases that they do blur together at times) that the dealer wanted to swap engines and the MFR wanted it rebuilt. The debate raged until it got to the point where they had no time to do either. The dealer really wanted to make this customer happy. I think there may also have been an issue with the availability of replacement parts. Again, I am not privy to everything that goes on with the other side but that is the impression I got.

Coty > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 15:52

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I have a stuffed animal CarFox in my office. Don't hate me.

SteveLehto > Coty 11/03/2014 at 15:53

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Does he talk to you?

Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man > Creole Trash Panda 11/03/2014 at 15:54

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for all purposes of the class, the executive branch enforces the laws

actual screenshot from my class government class.

Creole Trash Panda > Jordaneer, The Mountaineer Man 11/03/2014 at 15:58

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Ummm the Judicial Branch enforces laws. That's why we have "Checks and Balances". The Executive Branch has no bearing in law enforcement. That's why we have an Attorney General who is always noted as the the nation's top LAW enforcement official. Who ever is providing this information needs to stop immediately.

POSFordRanger > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 16:05

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I meant around Jalopnik. When the ZR1 was being developed there was probably an article about it once a week. It would be kind of silly of me to suggest that you were under five years old.

Coty > SteveLehto 11/03/2014 at 16:10

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He stares at the back of my head 52 hours a week.

SteveLehto > POSFordRanger 11/03/2014 at 16:12

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I was merely posing the question jokingly in that I can't imagine spending that much on a Corvette (not a vette guy). I'm looking at the documents right here: It was a 2011.

SteveLehto > Coty 11/03/2014 at 16:13

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He's lazy. He ought to be staring at it 52 hours A DAY.